Curse

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Fiends attack with a speed of about 1 attack every 1.9s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target.

Bone Horrors attack at a speed of 1 attack every 3.17s with a mean damage per attack of 27.5 against an AL60 target.

Fiend attacks are stronger over the same length of time, and if you add in [[Barbs] bonus and [[Mark of Pain], they are even more devastating. This is partly why fiends require such high energy cost.

Also melee AI has pathing issues especially when fleeing from AoE attacks, and they can be body-blocked from reaching their intended target. Ranged AI is more reliable and switches target faster when needed.

Melee AI has issues which make the DPS lower than their potential max, but they don't flee from AoE attacks.

You've missed the point. If you want Mark of Pain to hit 5-7 targets every time, which is by far the fastest way to kill any group, you need to cornerblock. In a cornerblocking situation fiends have a DPS of 0 because 100% of their hits will be into a wall.

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've missed the point. If you want Mark of Pain to hit 5-7 targets every time, which is by far the fastest way to kill any group, you need to cornerblock. In a cornerblocking situation fiends have a DPS of 0 because 100% of their hits will be into a wall.

What is your MoP target choice? Mine is usually a target that tends to stay close to other monsters and doesn't move much. I usually pick a monk monster or a caster boss. These targets are usually quite resilient because of their higher hp/armor or they heal themselves well. But the longer they stay alive within their group, the longer they can be exploited for MoP damage to surrounding monsters.

Because my target choice tends to be a caster in the middle of a pack, fiends make more sense for hitting them to activate MoP, while my bone minions/shamblings/jagged would help to hold them in. Melee minions have little chance of reaching a well-placed MoP target in the center of a group. When you dont need to exploit them for MoP anymore, just cast [[Barbs] on the target and your fiends would finish them off very quickly.

Even though all minions can attack different targets, they tend to take target "suggestions" from their MM, which in turn takes it from your character if he is set to guard. Fiends are like snipers, they are much better in targeting relative to the other minions. If you are a melee character, use a ranged weapon and ctrl-space on the target.

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That depends on your MoP target choice. Mine is usually a target that tends to stay close to other monsters and doesn't move much. I usually pick a monk monster or a caster boss. These targets are usually quite resilient because of their higher hp/armor or they heal themselves well. But the longer they stay alive within their group, the longer they can be exploited for MoP damage to surrounding monsters.

Because my target choice tends to be a caster in the middle of a pack, fiends make more sense for hitting them to activate MoP, while my bone minions/shamblings/jagged would help to hold them in. Melee minions have little chance of reaching a well-placed MoP target in the center of a group.

No matter how well you chose a target, the dps is going to be insignificant when compared to a blocked enemy where MoP hits every single creature in the group... perhaps a diagram will help you understand the difference.

Nainoa · Jul 02, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

How do heroes handle weaken armor? I've read some old threads where it says they spammed it on recharge even if the target still had the debuff. I'm guessing this is because it's classified as a spell instead of a hex which the AI seems to be much more proficient with in terms of spreading the hex to multiple targets.

Fuzzy Taco · Jul 02, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

i hardly ever run fiends on a bomber, but wouldn't flagging the bomber alone to a spot with a clear viewpoint of enemies (even when they're cornerblocked) allow the minions to hit a MoP'd target? it doesn't take much effort, and, considering the minions will follow the bomber around until there's a target, i don't see why it wouldn't work.

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

No matter how well you chose a target, the dps is going to be insignificant when compared to a blocked enemy where MoP hits every single creature in the group... perhaps a diagram will help you understand the difference.

I assume the dark green spots represent player/heroes/henchies, light green spots represent minions, and red spots represent enemies?

If that is the case, your middle diagram is unlikely to happen. This is what should happen if it works correctly against a caster mob. Notice that I never bring melee heroes or henchies but if I use fiends, I always have melee minions for support.

Code:

where o = necro player/heroes/henchies
M = fiends
m = Jagged/Shamblings/bone minions
x = monsters
X = MoP target

If most of your minions can follow your targeting to the MoP target in the middle, the melee minions would tend to move towards it, helping to hold aggro. But of course, you dont always get this perfect scenario but you should still be able to get good damage from MoP most of the time.

Super Igor · Jul 02, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Modifieng sab's is a tradition wtf are you about? XD

kanuks · Jul 02, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I have found out that Sab's necro/rit healer is absolutely outshined by a pure Channelling/Resto Rit. He deals high damage and heals more. 2 advantages for 0 disadvantages is a no-brainer for me.

Nainoa · Jul 02, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

The point of the Necro primary for the healer hero was for the excellent energy management that no other class can match. Any monk or ritualist primary will not be able to keep churning out heals like a necro in longer fights with a minion master/bomber. If your rit is also using mana for damage I don't see how it could keep mana up unless you're manually casting offering of spirit for him each time. (I've read they don't use it unless they are out of energy). Neither would you be able to pull at the same rapid rate if you have to wait for a monk/rit to regen after each long battle. This is all in theory. I'm a new player so I have very limited HM experience. That just seems like the logical reasoning behind the choice for a N/Rt.

Master Necromanz · Jul 02, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Energy management. Rit have not as much energy gain as soul reaping gives the N/Rt... So, Why more damage if you have a MM > SS'er > N/Rt. It really synergize all. MM attacks (trigger barbs, MoP etc.) and defend (make a body block wall). Enemy dies, all necro gains XX Energy for the kill.

That's why it is better. And what damage skills would you bring? Splinter weapon, AR?

The SS have them.

DarkSpirit · Jul 02, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Necromanz

Energy management. Rit have not as much energy gain as soul reaping gives the N/Rt... So, Why more damage if you have a MM > SS'er > N/Rt. It really synergize all. MM attacks (trigger barbs, MoP etc.) and defend (make a body block wall). Enemy dies, all necro gains XX Energy for the kill.

Agree. This is the main reason why I dont usually bring a Rit hero.

Quote:

That's why it is better. And what damage skills would you bring? Splinter weapon, AR?

The SS have them.

At level 14 channeling Splinter and AR are alot more effective than the level 10 version from a N/Rt. You can really feel the difference. But you may have to manually cast Offering of Spirit sometimes, since heroes dont cast it upon recharge.

But as far as minion bombing is concered, N/Mo still make better MM bombers, especially with SR, [[Infuse Condition]/[[Foul Feast] and [[Dwayna's Sorrow].

cellardweller · Jul 03, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If that is the case, your middle diagram is unlikely to happen. This is what should happen if it works correctly against a caster mob. Notice that I never bring melee heroes or henchies but if I use fiends, I always have melee minions for support.

And what proportion of PvE groups consists entirely of ranged monsters? Situation 2 is the pve situation you'll face in the vast majority of pve - Ranged monsters stay at the edge of the agro bubble, melee monsters run forward to hit the squishiest targets.

DarkSpirit · Jul 03, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

And what proportion of PvE groups consists entirely of ranged monsters? Situation 2 is the pve situation you'll face in the vast majority of pve - Ranged monsters stay at the edge of the agro bubble, melee monsters run forward to hit the squishiest targets.

And that still shouldn't necessarily change the situation much. Melee monsters like Mhenlo, who runs around. If you want, you can also try bringing a snare. Or some minions may enage melee monsters sometimes, but most minions should still hold aggro if you time it right.

Whatever the case, my first MoP target is usually not going to be a melee monster who runs around. It is going to be a caster sitting in the middle of a group of casters.

Melee monsters who have detached themselves from the main group can be dealt with later through Barbs.

cellardweller · Jul 03, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Melee monsters who have detached themselves from the main group can be dealt with later through Barbs.

Thats exactly the problem. With fiends you can kill all the clumped casters in 5-10 seconds then you have to spend spend 10-20 seconds killing the melees individually. With corner blocks and melee minions you can kill everything in 6-11 seconds and pick up your loot because the entire enemy group is held adjacent to one another.

DarkSpirit · Jul 03, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Thats exactly the problem. With fiends you can kill all the clumped casters in 5-10 seconds then you have to spend spend 10-20 seconds killing the melees individually. With corner blocks and melee minions you can kill everything in 6-11 seconds and pick up your loot because the entire enemy group is held adjacent to one another.

You dont always have a corner to block. And MoP is effective against a monster in the middle of a group, not one that is running around individually since it doesn't cause damage to the target itself, only to the surrounding monsters. Barbs, on the other hand, only cause damage to the target.

Furthermore, the monsters you should attack first are the casters like monks, mesmers, and elementalist monsters that deal devastating AoE damage in HM, not the warriors and in HM, the warrior monsters know how to go for your monks instead of your tanks so dont expect your minions to hold good aggro. Enfeebling Blood, Aegis, Ward against Melee (from Herta), and Spiteful Spirit should be able to handle them while you attack their casters.

Also, a dual MM team still has more melee minions than a single MM team. So even if you tend to work better with melee minions, a dual MM team would still be superior.

cellardweller · Jul 03, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You dont always have a corner to block.

You're right - its only more effective in 99% of pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And MoP is effective against a monster in the middle of a group, not one that is running around individually since it doesn't cause damage to the target itself, only to the surrounding monsters. Barbs, on the other hand, only cause damage to the target.

Exactly which is why you corner block to ensure that the melee and caster are held adjacent to one another

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Furthermore, the monsters you should attack first are the casters like monks, mesmers, and elementalist monsters that deal devastating AoE damage in HM, not the warriors and in HM, the warrior monsters know how to go for your monks instead of your tanks so dont expect your minions to hold good aggro. Enfeebling Blood, Aegis, Ward against Melee (from Herta), and Spiteful Spirit should be able to handle them while you attack their casters.

Maybe the penny will drop soon... corner blocking means you kill both melee and casters at the same time. It will always result in faster kills because you have no mop up to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Also, a dual MM team still has more melee minions than a single MM team. So even if you tend to work better with melee minions, a dual MM team would still be superior.

You get a few extra melee minions, a few fiends that shoot into walls at the expense of missing AoE's, lower spec'd splinter and less damage from having to bring herta instead of another ranger or paragon - doesn't sound superior to me.

DarkSpirit · Jul 03, 2008, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I would rather cater for 99% of PvE that I have seen, than for the 1% of PvE that depends on monsters happen to be appearing in the next corner of a 90 degrees wall that I am approaching. How is your strategy going to work if you are in an open field?

As a ranged character, my minions are my wall which I can form around mobs. Warrior monsters are usually not a problem for me with Enfeebling Blood, Spiteful Spirit, and Aegis, and with so many more melee minions, even without Herta.

cellardweller · Jul 03, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I would rather cater for 99% of PvE that I have seen, than for the 1% of PvE that depends on monsters happen to be appearing in the next corner of a 90 degrees wall that I am approaching. How is your strategy going to work if you are in an open field?

Pretty much all of pve is bodyblockable. If you're looking for 90 degree walls to find them then thats you're problem. I'd suggest playing with someone that knows how to block then come back after you've seen entire groups melt in seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

As a ranged character, my minions are my wall which I can form around mobs. Warrior monsters are usually not a problem for me with Enfeebling Blood, Spiteful Spirit, and Aegis, and with so many more melee minions, even without Herta.

I can't believe you're still missing the point. The problem isn't protecting yourself from the melees. The problem is that the melees are not being hit by MoP when you're wailing on the casters.

DarkSpirit · Jul 03, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

I am already body blocking just fine with minions. Your diagram obviously shows 90 degrees walls in the picture.

Honestly, your pictures dont make sense to me. If I have ranged fighters (which I always do) and fiends, which are blocked by a corner, why can't I simply flag them around the corner before enaging? But instead, your diagram shows the main group of party members staying far away from the fight, blocked by the corner, so I dont know how your rangers and paragons are going to get their LoS either. How can you claim to have higher damage when your other party members are not even contributing?

And the way that I am doing it doesn't mean that melee monsters can never be held together in the group too. If they are sometimes distracted by attacking melee minions, aggro is still being held which leaves them still subsceptible to MoP or AoE attacks. Knowing how to flag your heroes (and their minions would follow their masters) before a fight, would already overcome any corner issues, that you seem to have blown out of proportions.

I suggest you learn how to flag your heroes and henchies into suitable positions before enaging.

cellardweller · Jul 03, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

I'm left to assume you're being deliberately obtuse